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I never really knew my Grand Pa very well. My Mom and he didn't get along so we didn't go there much. He was a railroader until he retired--mostly working the switchyards in Lafayette, Indiana. Back when he was a teenager, he enlisted in the US Army and somehow got shipped off to the gawd-forsaken wild lands of Arizona before the First World War. Believe it or not, my Grand Pa was a US Cavalry man. He was one of the first enlisted men to be issued the now famous 1911 .45 Gov't model. He and his fellow soldiers were under Gen. Blackjack Pershing in the legendary chase of Pancho Villa. Grand Pa was stationed in Douglas, Arizona, and participated in many of the cavalry chases of the elusive Villa. I actually have some of his military papers showing service dates there in Arizona. Back home in Indiana, my Mom has an original panorama showing Grand Pa on his horse lined up with all the other pony soldiers.
When Grand Pa came home, he fathered four sons and had to raise them all by himself after his wife died shortly after my Dad was born in 1922. In those days, Grand Pa was a mule skinner and wrangler for Purdue University's horse and mule herd. He taught his sons how to be good hunters at an early age because that meant they were putting food on the table. People didn't hunt for sport back in the 1930's there in the Depression--they hunted for food. Grand Pa was one of those tough love guys who would give each kid a single cartridge and say, "Don't come home unless you kill something with this." He was an abusive father and often beat his sons if they failed to kill something with the single shell. He accused them of wasting his ammunition and that was a cardinal sin back on those days.
For some reason, my own Dad never liked pistols--he only like long arms and that's what we collected as I was growing up. Shotguns, rifles, muskets, you name it, the house was often filled with long arms but, curiously, no pistols. Dad would never allow me to have a pistol. If we went to the range, I was welcome to fire a military surplus 1911 .45 but I could never actually OWN a pistol. Plenty of rifles, but NO pistols allowed.
I never knew Grand Pa had a favorite pistol until my Dad died in August 1998. When I went back for the funeral I was prowling around in his bedroom and digging through drawers and, lo and behold, I found a pistol. I pulled it from the drawer in amazement. Heck, I didn't even know what kind of pistol it was! My Dad had served as a top turret gunner on a B-17 in WWII and had been shot down and somehow survived six Nazi prison camps. Only one of his crew was alive when my Dad died--Jack Bowen, one of the two waist gunners. Jack was from Texas and a shooter from the git go. He took one look at the pistol and said, "That's an old lemon squeezer, John, and here's how you break it open."
Well, I took it back to Arizona. This was in the pre-9/11 Era so I simply stuffed it in my suitcase and didn't give it a second thought. Over the years, the pistol has resided in a variety of drawers, closets, cupboards, boxes and bins. For several years I thought I had permanently actually lost the pistol. It disappeared in 2006 and only was found again in April 2011. It has been residing safely in a locked .50 ammo can tucked into a secret spot. I was very relieved to find it but still really didn't (and don't) know what to do with it.
It was probably manufactured in the early 1900's but could have rolled off the S&W production line as last as the 1930's. I haven't yet figured out how to equate the serial number with the production date. In any event, it was probably designed for use with old-fashioned powder, possibly even black powder. I can't imagine it could take the pressure of modern smokeless powder. I would rate its condition as the high side of fair or maybe the low side of good.
Yesterday, I decided to take it for a walk around the various local gun shops. I took it to Ski's and the owner didn't know what to offer for it. He said it could be worth anywhere from $100-$500. Then I took it to Max's and they only offered me $50 on trade in. I took it to Ross Gun Shop but those people look so dour in there I didn't even want to talk to them about it.
This morning, I have been researching the pistol and learning more about it. I did find one up for auction and the owner of that one thinks it is worth $400. You can click here to see his auction.
I know it's probably heresy to sell of Grand Pa's gun, especially with his Pancho Villa pedigree. However, I'm not a gun collector, I want to actually SHOOT the firearms I own. Likewise, I don't have any appropriate context in which to display Grand Pa's pistol. So, it looks like I'm gonna sell it if I can get a fair price for it. I'm guessing it ought to be worth $200, plus or minus. I suspect I will register to be a seller on one of the online gun auction sites and give it a whirl.
Before taking that big leap, however, I'd like to hear the opinions of my shooter buddies: Jef, Tom, Gary, Brad, Wes, and Matt. I hope one or all of your guys weigh in on this topic. Just use the comment function below so we can all hear your thoughts on the matter. THANK YOU!
Well, that's my story and sticking to it! Cheers, jp
9 comments:
(Our first comment was received from Dear Friend, Tom. THANKS TOM!)
One of my references (one of the more conservative ones) gives the value of 265 for good condition to 450 for excellent condition. I think that you going online is an excellent idea, and I would recommend Gunbroker.com.. I have found that you can get the best prices for guns on that site since there are so many subscribers. I think that from the name used in the reference of mine and based on the serial number it is the Smith and Wesson .32 Safety Hammerless 3rd model. Serial range of 170000 to 242981 indicates that it was built from 1909 to 1937. Just from the pictures, I would say that it is in at least good condition and I would start out my bidding at 200 or 250 at the bottom and see what it brings. Good pictures like you have on the blog are the key to getting the best price on the auction site. I would also show pictures of the internal barrel and the cylinder internal so bidders have a great idea of what they are bidding on. Hope this helps, Tom
Tom beat me to the punch on the SN. I'm guessing maybe 1912, but who knows?
My take on selling it: Personally, I wouldn't. It's an interesting family artifact that once gone, is gone. Don't think of it as just a gun. It's part of your family's past. If it's part of a past you'd just as soon be done with, by all means sell it. But if not:
I'd get a piece of the nicer looking old paperwork you have on the Villa connection and have a high quality scan made of it. I would then use it as a background, and have the pistol mounted on top of it in a good looking antique sort of shadow box frame, glass topped, and hang it up on the wall.
My $.02
Thanks, GH, that's a VERY interesting idea--one that we will definitely have to think about, especially since Grand Pa had a clear connection to the 1911 .45 gov't model. Thanks for thinking of that idea--it hadn't crossed my feeble brain. Cheers, jp
(Our third comment was posted by Jef. He tried to post it here but it disappeared so he graciously sent it by email and we haev pasted it into the comment form--here it is.)
John, I like the GH idea of the shadow box wall hanging for grandpas pistol. The pistol has a net cost to you of $0.00 and with the family history thrown in it has story value you can't buy. You could get it out and clean/fondle it from time to time and time warp back to days gone by. It looks in fair condition and probably won't bring alot in trade. However, if its not like selling your favorite little pony and the cash would provide relief then walking away from it may be justified. Choose carefully my son.
(DF & LBR Gary sent along an email comment. He, too, couldn't get it to post here on the blog. here's what Gary had to say:)
I would sell it and use the cash for other uses - like that new 44 mag bear pistol you're looking to purchase in the near future. It does have artifact value, but you will probably never know what it was used for or if it could have possibly been found in the mud along the track 80 years ago. My Dos Pesos...........
Dear Friend Wes sent along a comment via email May 23. Here it is: "Good Morning John -
I am afraid I am not much of a source for appraisals, but I see you do have some folks who do know what they are looking at. Most of the time I buy on how it feels when I pick it up. (Then I may have to save for a long time to go back and get it.) Right now a shootable weapon in hand is better than money in the bank. (Until the régime figures out a way to take them away.) Headed for hot here, hope you are enjoying comfortable weather. Later. = Wes"
Hi John,
I just thought I would throw in my two cents as one of the others put it. I have seen these S&W’s at gun shows priced from $75-150 in similar condition. These guns were favorites of gamblers, bar girls and others around 1900. The 32 S&W cartridge was a weak cartridge but could do the job from close range i.e. less than five feet. Although it lacked knockdown power it could save a persons life when needed. I have three of these types of weapons. Two could probably be fired with ammo of that era. Mine are nickel plated which was also very popular then. I do not have any history of where mine has been or what they might has been involved in. Yours on the other hand do have a history and especially YOUR family history.
I recommend that unless you need a few bucks you should keep it and maybe do as I did. Put it in a shadow box and hang it on the wall. That makes a good conversation piece which usually involves a discussion of the progress in firearms during the last 100 plus years. In your case you can trace yours back over 90 years to the border wars involving Poncho Villa, George S. Patton, Black Jack Pershing and your Grandfather. Depending on your Grandfather’s Army duties he may have carried it in addition to his 1903A3 Springfield 30-06 rifle. Not a bad key to the door of history. Shadow boxes can be obtained at almost any craft store for less than two boxes of ammo.
I am the type that likes to shoot what I own but in addition to the ones I mentioned I have two shotguns on the wall. A 1874 Remington side by side in 12 ga. and a Chicopee Falls Cycle and Gun Works 10 ga. These two are conversation pieces for sure. None are worth that much but they represent history and they are mine. If you do decide to rid yourself of that history find someone in your family that will appreciate them or give them to the NRA Museum. I don’t know for sure that they would be interested BUT it is better than having them get lost or end up being melted down by the government gun grabbers.
My father returned from WWII with quite a bit of Nazi souvenirs. I know there were helmets, uniform caps, Nazi flags including a battle flag. He did not have any Lugar’s or SS daggers but what he had was part of history. We do not know where any of it is now because it disappeared over 50 years ago. In reference to your gun I have over many decades sold or traded firearms that I wish I still had. I have kicked myself in the rear over some of those sales and regret every one of them. Keep the S&W, enjoy it, and you can remember your Grandfather and Father every time you look at it. Remember when it is gone so is a piece of history and in this case your family's history.
Good luck in what ever you decide. Pat 211N187@gmail.com
Based on the last awesome comment above, we immediately withdrew the listing for the pistol. It is now going into a shadow box where it obviously belongs along with Grand Pa's US Army papers. You have no idea how profound it was to have a late night phone conversation with a total stranger from the Salt Lake Basin. THANK YOU FOR MUCH for the Heart & Soul you put into your conversation with me Tuesday night. I will remember it forever and it is now part of The Story!!!!!! May Your Spirit Soar Strong Forever Always and All Ways!
Many Cheers & Happy Trails! jp
John: You know I'm not into guns but the thing I found most interesting was something you said on your other blog, or maybe it was this one, about the fact that you had a photo of your grandpa when he was in the calvary and got this gun. I vote that you do a shadow box that features the gun, the relevant photo (get a good print made from a good scan of it) and maybe a little historical overview that describes it in the shadowbox. I'm thinking Antiques Roadshow kind of presentation. Even though you don't have kids, maybe one of the other relatives would enjoy it when you are long gone...which means they will be waiting a very long time. Thanks for sharing the great story. Be sure to watch an episode of Antiques Roadshow on PBS so you get the drift.
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